Envoy Julie Fisher to Belsat: US sanctions pressure on Lukashenka regime to increase (interview)
Taking into account the political prisoners issue and the regime’s contributing to the current migrant crisis, the United States is not going to ease pressure on the Belarusian authorities, US Ambassador to Belarus Julie Fisher said in a recent interview with Belsat TV. It was granted on December, 1.
Belsat host Ihar Kuley: Ambassador Fisher, it is an honour to have you here in this studio again; it is second time you are here. Thank you for the visit and for the interview.
Julie Fisher: Thank you for the opportunity to join you again.
You don’t seem to visit Warsaw very often, i mean public visits. Let me ask you what is the reason for you being here today?
Well, thank you. It’s a pleasure for me to be back in Warsaw. Actually I think I am here quite regularly and today’s visit is part of the ongoing work that I do in Warsaw. I spend a tremendous amount of time coordinating with our Polish colleagues, with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and others, and with Poland’s government. In addition, when I am in Warsaw, I have the opportunity to engage with those leaders, those members of the Coordination Council who are located here in Warsaw as well as representatives of civil society and NGOs working to advance democracy in Belarus. So, there is so much happening in Warsaw and in Poland that is related to Belarus; being here seems to be exactly the right opportunity.
It is not a secret that after the Belarusian authorities cancelled your agrement, now you stay in Vilnius and continue your mission from there. How much more difficult is it to fulfil your mission when you are not in Belarus?
It’s an incredibly unorthodox and unexpected challenge to be conducting my work from Vilnius. I am very grateful to the Lithuanians, to the Lithuanian government for the warm welcome that they have provided – not just to me as an American diplomat working on Belarus with an opportunity to live and work there, but for everything that Lithuania has done to host the pro-democracy forces who find themselves outside of Belarus, and other diplomats. There are other diplomats as well who have been requested to leave Belarus and find themselves work in Vilnius.
The challenge for us – even when we continue to have bilateral relations with Belarus, we continue to have an embassy on the ground in Minsk, Belarus continues to have an embassy on the ground in Washington. The challenges how are we able to work from inside Belarus understanding what is happening there and as the challenges of Belarus spill beyond its borders, as Belarus exports its problems, as it drives its own citizens behind its borders. It is how we can combine all information into one picture because I think that is what the regime actively works to prevent all of us from knowing, whether it’s independent media, and the way that he is agressively going after journalists and independent news outlets.
Today the next wave started, maybe you’ve heard that in the morning there was a new wave of detention of activists…
You know, it is evident that what Lukashenka and his regime are doing is actively trying to prevent the world as well as their own citizens from understanding what is happening domestically inside Belarus and how Belarus interacts with the world. So, the challenge for us, as I worked from Vilnius, is how we can best put these pieces of the puzzle together, to understand how it is that we can help Belarus move forward.
Next week US sanctions against the Lukashenka regime are coming into effect. Are you aware of the Belarusian companies’ attempts to avoid these sanctions?
So, what’s going to happen next week on December 10 is the expiration of general license which was issued to allow the companies which were engaged in economic activity with Belaruskali wind down that work. Our sanctions against Belaruskali are coming into force. This is an incredibly important step we took in the US; it was the step that we announced on Aug 9th, it was very much in reaction to the Ryanair incident the ongoing repression that we have seen at that point for a year since the 2020 elections on that August night.
The collective steps that we have taken over the course of the last nearly year and a half are fundamentally designed to change the calculations in Minsk. First and foremost, US sanctions over the decade have been deeply tied to the question of the political prisoners, and they continue to be. So, as long as the regime continues to hold nearly 900 (as of today, the human rights centre Viasna tells us that 888 political prisoners are being held), as long as Lukashenka and his regime not only hold those prisoners but continue to go after others…
Their number is constantly growing…
Then I fully expect that sanctions pressure from the US to increase.
But let me tell you about two examples – Alyaksei Aleksin, one of Lukashenka’s wallets, has already got rid of assets and made everything over to the members of his family; another one – the owner of the Ukrainian daughter of Belarus’ oil company Naftan has changed. They are trying to avoid the US sanctions because Naftan is also on the US sanctions list.
So, without getting into any of these specific targets, let me say this – I have tremendous amount of confidence in our ability in the US to enforce sanctions. The Treasury Department is incredibly an expert at these questions and the enforcement of our sanctions is as important as the development of the targets if we are going to actually have the impact we seek to have. So, this wouldn’t be the first country, the first set of targets where we find those on the other side of our sanctions are actively working to avoid them and we continue to work incredibly closely. We will work with the EU, our allies in the UK, Canada and others who are also bringing sanctions pressure to bear to ensure the strongest possible enforcement of these sanctions.
Will the US launch the secondary sanctions? I mean when not only Belarus and companies are put under sanctions but all other companies who trade with them no matter where they are located or whom they belong to?
The question of secondary sanctions is really important when it comes to US sanctions. In the case of sanctions against Belarusian targets and individuals, entities and individuals, Treasury has a great deal of latitude in applying secondary sanctions. So, the question of secondary sanctions is one that is out there today and the compliance question is one that anyone that would do business with these individuals and entities has to ask themselves.
Two weeks ago the Biden administration as well as Under Secretary Zeya in her interview with Belsat announced a new package of sanctions against Belarus. Is it a response to the migration crisis?
I believe we’ve been quite clear about this next round of sanctions; Secretary Blinken has spoken about them several times, Under Secretary Zeya too. For us, the migration crisis merits a sanctions response, there’s no question about it. But for us, there is an entire picture that underlies the pressure that we are bringing to bear with regards to Belarus. As I’ve already said, it is deeply tied to the question of politicial prisoners, it is also tied to the question of repression, it is tied to how Belarus continues to walk away from its international obligations, how it has deeply repressed the rights of the citizens in Belarus.
Fundamentally, these questions can’t be separated from the migrant crisis in terms of our approach. In my mind, it is not possible to separate what is happening on the border with Belarus and with Lithuania from the political crisis at home. It is an effort to distract from the political crisis, it is an effort for the regime to look for engagement that they otherwise denied because of the political crisis at home. So, we characterise our sanctions ‘intended to react to the migrant crisis but not simply that, but to the larger political crisis’.
Can you share some details on this new package of sanctions?
What you will find when we are ready to announce our sanctions, and that won’t be today, but what you will find when we announce the package, is that you will see a tremendous amount of coordination between us and the EU, the UK, Canada, you will see en effort by all of us that is intended to send yet another message to the regime in Minsk, it is intended to deny economic gain for those entities that benefit the regime, for those entities whose income and profit and revenues are funding the represiion; it is intended to respond to specific elements of the transnational repression tha we see emanating from Belarus. So, I think you will see a highly targeted set of actions that are coordinated amongst partners that are likeminded and responding to what is unfolding in Belarus.
So they will be more economic than symbolic (against some persons), not personal but targeted at economy of Belarus?
Just like the economy of Belarus, this question is a complex web of state-owned enterprises and individuals who benefit from that. I think that the targets that will be announced reflect the economic benefit that goes towards the Lukashenka regime. So you will see the range of targets in this package.
In a recent interview with the Russian journalist, Alyaksandr Lukashenka threatens to deploy nuclear weapon in the territory of Belarus. If this turns into reality, what would be the answer from the US and NATO?
I know about his yesterday’s comments. Let’s deal with the statement rather than with the potential for what could happen in the future. The statement itself is designed to be destabilising. Alyaksandr Lukashenka understands full well that the discussion of nuclear posturing in Europe has a tremendous impact. I do not believe there is any doubt that he timed these remarks just as NATO ministers were preparing to meet and Riga, Latvia yesterday and today. I find they are designed to be provocative like many statements that come out of Lukashenka. I don’t presume that they are grounded on any actual actions. But of course, we take seriously any mentions of adjustment to nuclear posture in Europe. The question of stability and Europe’s security is one of the questions in which the US has deeply invested – these are discussions that we consistently and constantly have at the NATO HQ with our allies and with our close partners at NATO and we will continue to do that.
On Nov 19, director of US National Intelligence Avril Haines visited Warsaw and warned the Polish authorities about the possibility of Russia’s attack on Ukraine. In Ukraine they believe that the attack might be carried out from the territory of Belarus as well. Do you have any information on this subject?
The Director of National Intelligence has spoken very directly about some of the threats that we see developing near Ukraine’s border. We have been clear, Secretary Blinken has also been clear about what we are observing in terms of Russian actions. Again, these are discussions that we are going to continue with our allies. Today at the NATO meeting in Riga, the question of Belarus’ role is one that needs very careful consideration. What I have observed out of Belarus since 2014 has been a very careful process by which it seems that Lukashenka did not want to involve himself in Russia’s aggression against Ukraine. But it was something that concerned me. We see this week that he seems to have greatly changed his views. The question is what has changed, what has caused Lukashenka to decide to change his mind after nearly seven years of not recognising Crimea as Russian, after seven years of continuing to acknowledge Crimea as Ukraine, what has changed his thinking on this subject. And the question in my mind is whether this was a demand, what is a demand from Moscow and who is actually making these decisions for Belarus – that is not clear.
He has not recognised Crimea as part of Russia yet, he is just talking.
That’s right, he is talking in a very typical fashion for him. This is perhaps the trial baloon talk about the is visit like many statements. It is entirely unclear and we’ll follow closely what steps what actual steps are taken.
President Biden invited Svyatlana Tsikhanouskaya to the Summit for Democracy. What is the meaning of this event, what is it about?
It’s a pleasure for me to have a chance to talk about the president’s Summit for Democracy. It is a very important project for President Biden and the entire US administration. Even before he took office, President Biden made clear that he was committed to renewing democracy both at home in the US and globally around the world, that this was a project that would be an absolute priority for him. So this Summit for Democracy is designed to kick off a Year of Action, and this year of action has three primary goals. First and foremost, it is defending democracy against authocracy. That is where I think particularly the efforts of Madam Tsikhanouskaya are so important and so prominent and are clearly recognised. Secondly, the Summit for Democracy will be advancing an agenda on fighting corruption, of course, it also has real relevance for Belarus.
Thirdly, the Year of Action will focus on advancing human rights globally. So these are three really enormous projects if we think about them both for the US – again we think about renewing democracy at home for us – but also as we worked for energise pro-democracy forces around the world. The work of Madam Tsikhanouskaya fits perfectly into this agenda. I would tell you that from my part. I find it an honour and priviledge to work with Belarus’ pro-democracy forces led by Madam Tsikhanouskaya on a regular basis. American officials at the most senior levels have sought her leaderhip, her engagement, her partnership, and so, she has an incredibly important and powerful voice on all of these subjects.
Is this a kind of recognising Tsikhanouskaya as a Belarusian leader? I know that some countries that have troubles with dictatorship were not invited to the summit and Belarus is like an exemption.
I am not going to get ahead of the White House with announcements on who is a participant. It is the White House’s, it is President Biden’s Summit for Democracy, so it’s really important that the announcements about participation and the characterisation of those who are included that it comes from the White House. This is an incredibly important event for us next week, and we ae just really proud to putting these ideas forward and to be engaging with our global partners on it.
Ambassador Fisher, thank you for your answers and your time, it was a pleasure to see you again!
Thank you very much, it is my pleasure to be back at Belsat.
The conversation was part of the news show Week aired on December, 5.
